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Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Using visual evidence with basic geometry to conclude the Steelers got help from the refs




The Steelers ended the Super Bowl by forcing Warner to "fumble" even though it is clear by these two pictures he was passing the ball. Follow my directions, use these pictures, and watch this video to assist in understanding why this is clearly a forward pass. Also, keep this rule in mind:
------"When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it foward, any intentional forward movement of his hand (relative to the opponent's goal line) starts a forward pass."
------Picture 1 to the top left is Kurt Warner about to get hit by the Pitt defender. Locate the white laces on the football. The bottom of those white laces is exactly horizontal with Warner's right elbow.
------Now, look at Picture 2. The bottom of the white laces (they're harder to see in this picture, but you can locate the laces on the ball) is much higher in relation to Warner's elbow.
------Now, think about it. Warner is clearly tucking his right elbow into his body while moving the ball up (and therefore, slightly forward). Look at his left arm as well. In picture 1 it is slightly behind where it is in picture 2. Warner's entire body is moving slightly forward from picture 1 to picture 2. You canNOT move the ball 'up' and backwards at the same time while tilting it forward. It's impossible, especially if you are attempting a Hail-Mary in the Super Bowl. Add all this visual and logical evidence to the fact that he threw a semi-spiral forward, then it is safe to say the indisputable visual evidence belies the call on the field.
------(And, since the Steelers committed an unsportsmanlike penalty on this play, if this play were properly overturned, the Cardinals would have had a 1st and 10 from the 29 yard line with 8 seconds remaining. They could have utilized a 15 yard out pattern, which can be completed in less than 7 seconds. Then, with 2 seconds remaining, they would have had one shot at the end zone from the 14 yard line, with Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston as dangerous threats for the walk-off victory.)
------[edit: INFORMAL POLL: If you think it is a pass, write a comment that says "pass." If you think it is a fumble, write a comment that says "fumble." I will start.]
------[edit: The NFL removed the link from which we grabbed these screen shots. Click on the link and you will see they claimed copyright laws. I say they're afraid people will realize it is a pass. Too bad a random Phillies blog thinks more quickly than the NFL.]


88 comments:

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

You're an idiot. Get a life.

Sid Bream said...

Those pics are about as clear as Pittsburgh's three rivers. Dude, get over it.

Anonymous said...

Did you take these photos underwater or through a jar a vaseline? You say it's clear he's tucking his elbow. HAve you ever thrown a football before? Because if anything, when you tuck your elbow before the throw, the ball goes slightly BACKWARDS, not forwards. Then the nose of the ball flicks upwards before any forward motion. You've proved the refs DID make a good call.

Anonymous said...

Wow. This is less clear than the Zapruder film. I dozed off halfway through your "analysis".

I'm feeling quite let down. I figured a website named with an incredibly lame pun on the name of Charlie Manuel would be fascinating reading. Instead, I'm getting a bats-eye view of two frames of video, with the claim that it's "definitive" proof that the Cardinals could have still won the Super Bowl. You're right, though, the Cardinals were doing such a good job of protecting Warner in obvious passing situations (witness the blurry fact that blurry defenders were able to tip his blurry "pass" in his blurry "hand") that they would have EASILY completed a blurry 15-yard out pass. Or, maybe Pittsburgh defends that, too. Hey, a Hail Mary chuck into the end zone's a sure thing, right?

Joe From said...

Dont listen to these homos. I think they are being dicks to you much like we all were dicks to girls we liked when we were nothing more than little tools trying to get with women. I think they like you is what Im saying. Be happy they are anonymous.

Good post~

Anonymous said...

holy crap!!! what a conspiracy!!! TURN THOSE MACHINES BACK ON MORTIMER!!!

Louis Lipps Sinks Ships said...

Um, I don't think Kurt Warner throws passes backhanded, so I wouldn't really consider this his throwing motion. Nice try though.

Anonymous said...

don't listen to the rude commenters...they're Daulerio's Cock Club, aka Deadspin underachievers. Speaking of Deadspin, ever since Leitch left, it's been HORSE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

assface said...

I followed your instructions and it made the football in my hand go backwards into my face because i was so pissed off that I had to read this garbled schlock. dumb.

Woodrow Paige, esq. said...

^ Mariotti, is that you?

Andy Musser said...

*yawn*....defy my logic instead of saying you dozed off. i think im right (i dont know im right). but if you can logically prove me wrong, i will admit im wrong.

Andy Musser said...

All I know is this is the most in-depth analysis of this play. Plus, its objective. Of course there will be more people disagreeing with me than agreeing with me (there are only about five thousand steelers fans for every cards fan). I just hope one of you guys can insult my analysis in a logical manner than insulting me in an illogical manner.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, these are pictures from the Youtube video for which there is a link. I don't know why Andy insisted on using this specific video, maybe it's the hilarious music in the background. If you watch any video of this play, i beg for you to show me any evidence, either in full speed or frame by frame, that he has made NO forward motion (obviously indicating a pass). The "letter of the law" in the rulebook states that "ANY INTENTIONAL FORWARD MOVEMENT OF HIS HAND" constitutes the beginning of a pass. He is clearly moving forward, then hit. Anything after this point is irrelevant if you think he ever loses control.

To those people who find this boring, who forced you to read this post? Prove Andy wrong if you can. Trust me, he'll take the time to discuss it with you.

Anonymous said...

Sid Bream? And you're not a Steelers fan...okay. It seems as if this detail has irked the Western Pennsylvanians. I wonder why.

Anonymous said...

Like you, I'm an Eagles fan, and had no dog in this fight.

First, the play was reviewed by people with better equipment and understanding of the rules who watch more football than you do.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28971640/

Key portion:

According to NFL VP of Officiating Mike Pereira, the replay official upstairs did see the play clearly.

“We confirmed it was a fumble,” said Pereira. “The replay assistant in the replay booth saw it was clearly a fumble. The ball got knocked loose and was rolling in his hand before it started forward. He has to have total control.”

That's the official line. Now to your analysis.

"When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it foward, any intentional forward movement of his hand (relative to the opponent's goal line) starts a forward pass."

You're interpreting the rule incorrectly. Also, your analysis of throwing motion is off (or incomplete).

In any throw, the first motions are rotational. Feet are planted, hips rotate, shoulders rotate back. Then, these moves are reversed. Weight is transferred from back foot to front foot. Hips open, shoulders open, but the elbow rotates BACK slightly before beginning a forward trajectory. The intent of the NFL definiton of the forward pass uses this point to define the forward pass. The NFL applies this standard pretty consistently which is why the replay booth could make the call pretty easily.

That's were your interpretation fails. Your pictures show the result of forward rotation of hips and shoulders, but don't account arm and elbow motion. Woodley clearly hits the ball as Warner is cocking his elbow to throw. Warner doesn't have control. I disagree that he threw a spiral 3 yards. Watch the video again. The ball comes out wobbly and doesn't go very far.

BTW try tucking your elbow to your body at any point while throwing. See what happens.

In any case, the evidence you present is far from indisputable, and not enough to overturn the call on the field.

Andy Musser said...

The pictures don't account for arm motion? Forget about the arm as an entity - focus on the hand. Read the rule. Nowhere does it say arm. The KEY is the hand. I see the hand moving upwards and therefore slightly forward from the first picture to the second picture.

Also, the Steelers defender is UNDOUBTEDLY moving forward at a high speed. If the ball is not moving forward, wouldn't the gap between the defender's left hand and the ball become MUCH smaller than it has? And if you question the time elapsed between pictures, look at the foot at the bottom left hand corner of the first picture. There is enough time elapsed for that foot to entirely disappear, so there is enough time for the defender's left hand to make WAY more distance had the ball actually NOT been moving forward.

Finally, I am a college student who goes to a bar for 12 hours on NFL Sundays and I watch several 1pm games at the same time, several 4pm games at the same time, the Sunday Night game, and the Monday Night game. I also recored Eagles games on my slingboxes and watch them over and over.

I guarantee I have seen more games this year than a replay official who is entirely focused on one game per Sunday.

Andy Musser said...

record*. it was a long night...

Andy Musser said...

If you move your arm forward and tuck your elbow, the ball goes backward RELATIVE TO YOUR ELBOW. It does not go backward RELATIVE to your opponent's goalline. If your entire body is moving forward and you have an intent to throw the ball 50 yards and you tuck your elbow, the ball will go backward relative to your elbow, but not a fixed point unattached to your body.

You did not defy the logic.

Scott Graham said...

If you "fumblers" out there think we're crazy now, you should read our statistically backed arguments during Phillies season.

BTW. Incomplete forward pass, but you didn't hear that from me.

Andy Musser said...

Pass.

Anonymous said...

pass

Anonymous said...

fumble

Anonymous said...

There's no logic to defy. Your point isn't supported by kinesiology or the interpretation of NFL Rules. You have the harder argument since you want to overturn the call, and your argument is thin.

"The pictures don't account for arm motion? Forget about the arm as an entity - focus on the hand. Read the rule. Nowhere does it say arm. The KEY is the hand. I see the hand moving upwards and therefore slightly forward from the first picture to the second picture."

The key words in that rule are "intentional forward movement". You're focusing on the hand, and I'm focusing on intent. That's why you're getting off track.

In your analysis, you haven't defined what you view as intent. From most games that I've seen, hip and shoulder rotation are not enough. Most officials seem to go by forward arm motion specifically forward rotation at the elbow, bicep extension and tricep extension to signal intent. Why was the replay official wrong?

"If you move your arm forward and tuck your elbow, the ball goes backward RELATIVE TO YOUR ELBOW. It does not go backward RELATIVE to your opponent's goalline. If your entire body is moving forward and you have an intent to throw the ball 50 yards and you tuck your elbow, the ball will go backward relative to your elbow, but not a fixed point unattached to your body."

Think this one through. If the ball is moving backward, that is a movement away from the fixed point/goaline.

"I guarantee I have seen more games this year than a replay official who is entirely focused on one game per Sunday."

Fair enough. Where's the anecdote that shows you have more understanding or better viewing equipment than an official whose name in on the line in the Superbowl?

Anonymous said...

tricep flexion

Andy Musser said...

You clearly do not understand what I am saying.

If your entire arm is moving forward, and you tuck your elbow into your body while moving your arm forward, your hand will go backwards relative to your elbow...but since your arm is moving forward relative to the opponent's goal line, your hand, while moving backwards relative to your elbow, is still moving forward relative to the goal-line.

If you toss a ball from the front seat to the back seat, while driving at 100 mph, the ball is moving forward relative to one object, and backward relative to another.

And, your interpretation of the rule is insane. RELATIVE TO THE OPPONENT'S GOAL-LINE.

And, why would the NFL admit its mistake when only an insane analysis can actually uncover the truth?

Stand up in the same exact position Warner is, and hold a ball exactly like Warner is. Then, move the ball upward. It will feel unnatural to you if you do not also move the ball forward. You will be trying to prove yourself right when you move the ball upward and backward. It will not feel like you are about to throw, it will feel like you are trying to prove something that's false.

Anonymous said...

No ideas on intentional forward movement? Under your interpretation, you could cock your arm to throw, run forward and drop the ball. That would be a forward pass to you RELATIVE TO THE OPPONENT'S GOAL-LINE. That's way off.

So, you're just going to call me insane? I'm backed on the interpretation by NFL officials. You're the one that's deviating from the accepted definition. Why are you correct?

Thanks for the high school physics lesson. Trust me I got your point wrt relative positioning. He wasn't throwing on the run. So at the moment of a forward pass, goaline and elbow are fixed objects, and the arm is moving backward due to backward elbow rotation.

Anyway, you get one more try to make your point. Again the key words are intentional forward movement. Not "hand". Not "relative to the goalline".

Or you could give up. It's your blog.

Andy Musser said...

Look up the definition of insane. I referred to my own analysis as insane. Relax. It seems as if you tried to imitate Warner as I instructed, and you failed as I predicted.

Intentionally dropping your elbow to start a throw is intentional. If that causes your hand to go forward (which is why it's a throwing mechanic), then, obviously it is intentional forward movement. Simple.

The NFL is not going to admit they blew the last play of the Super Bowl. Get over that, the NFL is biased. If you don't think that's true, then you don't understand sports is a business. Especially the NFL.

Notice how you never use the pictures in your argument. You try to kill my logic. My evidence is objective - yours is subjective.

Andy Musser said...

The key words are the ones in the rule. Otherwise, words would not be used in a rule-book. It's pretty goofy to claim a noun and a description in the rule are not 'key'.

I'd say that's a bad sign.

Anonymous said...

Completely relaxed, but now bored. This is basic conspiracy theory crap. The NFL makes money either way if you don't understand that then you don't understand the sports business.

I'm not using pictures because video is readily available on youtube. Video is better for MOVEMENT/MOTION which is what we're discussing. For the logic side, you still haven't shown much.

I didn't try your experiment because it was useless to the central point. Warner didn't show intentional forward movement. Now that you've defined it, I can see why you're so far off. It's not as simple as you think. The elbow doesn't drop. Especially with a QB as accurate as Warner. It rotates. Backward, then forward. He was hit before his elbow started forward rotation.

Good luck to you.

Anonymous said...

Heh, you're right. Although you started with the key word stuff.

"The KEY is the hand".

Peace.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if it was a pass or not, but I don't find your evidence very compelling. In my opinion, your second picture seems to indicate that his arm is cocked back even further (based on the location and perspective of the wrist band). Still, I am not saying you are wrong. Why not post a series of 7 to 10 frames so we can get a better look. BTW, as a Pats fan I did want it to be a fumble.

Anonymous said...

How did being a Pats fan make you want this to be a fumble? As a Pats fan myself I was under the impression that the Steelers were rivals and were to be hated.

Anywho, I won't deny that the end of the game was fishy, but if this is your undeniable evidence of an NFL conspiracy theory you might want to find something alot better than two youtube screengrabs.

Scott Graham said...

Since I am assuming most of you people commenting are associated with Deadspin, why not just watch the video they have? I find it very convincing. It's the one coupled with the "tuck rule". Where I feel like this argument ends is with about 5 seconds left in the video. He has CLEARLY started his motion. His throw starts low by his hip. He rotates his hips to get into the throw, starts his arm, and then gets hit. I know this whole play is close and thus controversial. However, this video (linked below) and the pictures on our blog completely settle it for me.

http://deadspin.com/5144422/kurt-warners-fumble-brings-back-some-old-tuck-rule-memories

Anonymous said...

I think we can all agree that the ball is moving up relative to the ground (if not then there is no point in having the discussion. this is obvious).

It is virtually impossible for the ball to be moving directly upwards. It will have some component of lateral movement, either forward or backward. And the only way it can be moving backward while moving upwards is if Warner extends his elbow. He does not. In fact, he bends it even more to continue the forward motion of the throw. The ball must be moving forward.

Also, I'm not sure anonymous above understands what "intentional" means. Anything Warner does of his own volition (i.e. not being forced by a hit) is intentional. Thus everything he is doing prior to getting hit by the Steeler defender is intentional. So his hand is moving forward, intentionally. Fits the rule perfectly. Incomplete pass.

Of course, none of this would be controversial if the NFL would actually take replay seriously and put more cameras in stadiums. A view directly to the side of Warner would make this much simpler. But no, it's probably better to spend time and money and making sure no one celebrates too much.

Anonymous said...

Definitely understand what the word intentional means. However, in football, intentional forward movement is a specific judgement wrt a forward pass as I've explained in my above comments.

"And the only way it can be moving backward while moving upwards is if Warner extends his elbow."

Since this is a baseball blog primarily, the motion that I'm talking about is easier to see with baseball pitchers.

Anyway, I'll move to the new pics.

Anonymous said...

Pass.

Andy Musser said...

Yes, the baseball pitchers' elbow goes forward and the hand goes backward. Yes, I understand your argument.

But does the pitcher's hand go backward relative to the foul pole, or relative to his own body?

Certainly his own body. But I don't know about the foul pole. I've never had a reason to post frame-by-frame pictures of Norm Charlton. Plus, ask anyone on here: the mechanics for a pitcher are so much different than a QB it's not even worth mentioning.

If you're gonna stoop to the level of showing me pictures of Randy Johnson's clean hair to theoretically prove why Warner's football *should* have moved backward (instead of the forward, wobbly, spiral that came out of his hand), then I think it's time for you to move on.

Anonymous said...

"Certainly his own body. But I don't know about the foul pole."

And that's your problem.

"Plus, ask anyone on here: the mechanics for a pitcher are so much different than a QB it's not even worth mentioning."

Of course, but the example finally got you to see the point. Of course, if only there was time to work on your reading comprehension. Remember, the key is "intentional forward movement" of the hand. Most refs intepret this as hand movement based on arm motion. You see it differently, but it doesn't matter.

"If you're gonna stoop to the level of showing me pictures of Randy Johnson's clean hair to theoretically prove why Warner's football *should* have moved backward (instead of the forward, wobbly, spiral that came out of his hand), then I think it's time for you to move on."

If you think thats a spiral.... The ball moved forward because the ball was still in his hands, but he didn't have control to get it more the 3-5 yards downfield RELATIVE TO THE GOALLINE (sorry couldn't resist)
Anyway, I'll take your suggestion, and move on. I was merely checking your blog after your pathetic requests on Deadspin for someone to look at your argument. Honestly, you shouldn't look for national attention when your talent is community level at best. Keep working.

Andy Musser said...

Again, I haven't stooped to your level of insults, although I have plenty of ammunition.

And, again, intentional forward movement of the arm includes the hand. I've never taken anatomy, but I know the hand is the end of the arm. Look up the definition of the word 'hand.'

Intentional movement of the arm, which makes the 'hand' move forward relative to any fixed point, means that all parts of the arm are intentionally moving. We're arguing the definition of the word hand.

Have you ever moved your arm in one direction without the intent of the hand following as well?

And I passed community college already with the ole 2.0, so thanks for the compliment.

Andy Musser said...

I managed to argue a person to the point where he claimed the 'hand' is not part of the 'arm,' that intentional forward movement of the arm includes all parts of the arm EXCEPT the only body part mentioned in the rule (hand), and that the way NFL officials commonly interpret (or mis-interpret) the 'hand' rule is more important than the rule itself and the reference point mentioned in that rule.

I'm calmer, more objective, and three days ago, I had a blog that averaged around 12 hits per day over a span of 6 months.

Now, time to get a little goofy and forget about those who are naturally goofy, like yourself. I can only hope I can claim my hand isn't attached to my arm in a few hours.

stickski said...

This post a few above make some proper comments -
I think we can all agree that the ball is moving up relative to the ground (if not then there is no point in having the discussion. this is obvious).

It is virtually impossible for the ball to be moving directly upwards. It will have some component of lateral movement, either forward or backward. And the only way it can be moving backward while moving upwards is if Warner extends his elbow. He does not. In fact, he bends it even more to continue the forward motion of the throw. The ball must be moving forward.

I say this is an incomplete pass. It fairly simple by the rules. Here's how one should conclude this. 1. The ball went several yards forward - seems like a pass. 2. Did the defender knock the ball forward? No, Warner propelled the ball forward by himself. 3. Did the defender dislodge the ball from Warner prior to his starting forward throwing motion - No he didn't. Its close but he didn't. Your two pics show this. All your disecting and analysis of the two pics are totally unnecessary and confusing. If you've thrown a football in your life you can look at those two pics and easily see that his arm had started forward. People who aren't willing to state that don't see Kennedy's head explode either.
Anywho, just listen to that ahole Mike Pereira's CYA explanation of this play on Youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPiDljTt2Uw I posted this comment - He says "it was that contact on the way up". Up? Well up is forward. That by NFL rules is a pass. This guy in all his CYA nonsense CLEARLY shows that he is a moron and a dick. Nice hosejob. I still can't believe that this idiot said "IT WAS THAT CONTACT ON THE WAY UP"!!!!!

John Madden said...

Yall are pretty intense.

I don't know where you want to take this argument/debate/conspiracy theory, whether it be to a "higher" blog or the US Supreme Court. Its stupid. Everyone is biased no matter who your non-Super Bowl team is. You either root for the underdog, or the overdog. (And if you're "just rooting for a good game," then you're probably cheering for the Cardinals at this point, to keep the game going.)

The Replay Officials need "indisputable visual evidence" (a phrase we all know and love) to overturn the call. Call this blog what you want, but it's a dispute. Since the majority of us can't come to an indisputable conclusion, we should fuckin stop. Unless you guys love going nowhere fast with your pointless debates, you should stop wasting your time and do something worthwhile with it. Like go get laid.

Take a step back, look at the situation, and if you want to keep arguing, go ahead.. while I get even more schmammered and drunk and LAID.

I hope you guys either see the light and stop debating an outcome that is not going to be changed (Steelers win Super Bowl XLIII).. or (what will probably happen) you will tear this comment to pieces with your GENIUS blog logic.

Have a great night!

Andy Musser said...

Okay, so if you evaluate the past two comments: the only comments that have been posted in the past seven hours are split - 1 to 1.

The one argument is stating that I am intentionally contradicting the replay official (no, I am simply stating he was wrong). As much as you'd like to believe I have a vendetta against the specific replay official (whom has yet to be identified), I honestly don't have an innate angst against those who are paid to objectively review athletic events.

All I know is that it is impossible to move the ball upwards and backwards while trying to complete a Hail Mary pass - which is what the majority of the commenters are stating. If you move the ball upwards, it is in an implicit (and explicit, if you use the pictures) admission of guilt.

Warner's immediate reaction was pure anger, which is also a sign of 'his-being-screwed.'

*Yawn*. My hand seems to be separating itself from my body, yet I can still prove my point.

Have a good morning!

Mike_My_Ditka said...

Fuzzy Pics- Fuzzy Math.

If you actually look at the video, (a superior medium for proving things which I might look into if I were you) it always looked to me like the ball is coming out of Warner's hand before he started his throwing motion forward. Have you even looked at the NFL films replay? You know, the one with excellent production value? To me it proves its a fumble. Go to nfl.com, its there.

All you are doing as an investigator is manipulating the evidence to try to produce your preconceived outcome.

As soon as he loses grip its deemed as losing possession, no matter what happens after.

Dont forget, even if this is incomplete, all it does is set up another highly improbable hail mary. Its not like you prove you can overturn an actual scoring play.

"And, since the Steelers committed an unsportsmanlike penalty on this play, if this play were properly overturned, the Cardinals would have had a 1st and 10 from the 29 yard line with 8 seconds remaining. They could have utilized a 15 yard out pattern, which can be completed in less than 7 seconds. Then, with 2 seconds remaining, they would have had one shot at the end zone from the 14 yard line, with Fitz, Boldin, and Breaston as dangerous threats for the walk-off victory."

This is also totally stupid in many ways- first you make ridiculous assumptions about what they would be able to do in 8 seconds as if it were a fact. Seeing how you claim to be so "scientific" about everything else just undermines your entire argument. Also couldnt you argue that had they ruled it incomplete there would be no excessive celebration penalty?

Final thing to say- I know doing all your 'research' makes you feel better about yourself at night, and grubbing deadspin for a link and using Lietch's vulnerability of the subject matter to get hits makes you feel good Im sure. But in the end there will be no asterisk, there is no conspiracy, and football is a game of inches- one team had to lose, though neither team actually deserved to. Im sure had the cardinals came up with the highly improbable walk off scenario steeler fans would have this "incomplete pass" as their tuck rule, x 1000.

Referees are human, and every play of every game allows for human error. Lets just enjoy the game for what it was and not be sore losers. To pick it apart like this, it would only be fair to pick apart every play of every game as well. Maybe then we can have the bloggers decide the outcomes of games, since of course they know more than referees trained in this specific field.

Case closed. Move on.

Scott Graham said...

Mike, you're right. What happens after he loses grip doesn't matter. What happens before does. If his arm is going forward, the loss of possession constitutes an incomplete pass. If not, it is a fumble. We proved that the ball is going forward. Thus the loss of possession would indicate an incomplete pass.

Fuzzy pics? I see very clear pics from NBC at the top. Also, acknowledging human error is what caused the NFL to institute official replay within the final 2 minutes of each half. They implemented this device so that each play could be scrutinized to give the teams the fair chance they deserve to win the game. Did this happen? No. They decided not to check to see if they were again wrong.

I'm not claiming conspiracy theory, and I am unsure if Mr. Musser is. However, this play should have been reviewed, and based on this evidence, the Cardinals should have had another play. The chances of them succeeding and winning the game? Not too high, but they're a hell of a lot better than when they do not even have the ball.

If you really want me to watch this NFL films video of which you speak, you should post a link. I went to NFL.com as you suggested and the only readily available video I saw was a 17 minute recap of the game that showed no such loss of possession. I did however see plenty of videos clearly present showing the Holmes catch. There were 2, side by side. 4 videos in total, none of which were the controversial play of which we speak. Tell me why the NFL would post 2 replays of the same play (which was called correctly), and no special video showing the game deciding play that so many people believe they had wrong.

Mike_My_Ditka said...

Its laughable that you defend those pictures. Its even more laughable that you "proved" anything here.

Here is the play direct from the head of officiating:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80e8fa89

Starting at the 1:45 minute mark to the 3:50 mark they break the play down. To them its so clear they really dont even argue about it not being a fumble, only that it should have been officially reviewed.

There is also excellent analysis on inside the nfl last week and none of them think it was incomplete either. In fact no professional commentator is trying to argue this point except you, and you are nobody. Why should anyone care what you have to say?

And honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself. As someone who just had your favorite team win a championship, you should be more respectful of winning teams fans than to post bs like this.

What if someone started a blog where they insisted that game 5 of the WS should have been fully replayed? and they found some obscure rule to back their finding?

How bout if they had crappy still pics showing brad lidge's pitches and all the favorable calls he gets? How would this make you feel? I imagine you would get pretty defensive, feel its very unfair that isolated incidents are singled out, and feel that the blog was written with the intention to undermine the phillies winning by a sore loser.

That sounds a lot like what you are doing here.

It was a close play, but the ruling on the field has been backed up emphatically by everyone who's profession it is to judge this. While you are entitled to your opinion, yours is contrary to the opinion of people who actually matter. Therefore you should graciously let this go, and I think you owe the Steeler fans an apology for tying to make their team's victory illegitimate.

stickski said...

Ditka,
I kind of liked your first post but your second one is way off mark. These pics are great. Certainly most of the people in the media or with any ties to the NFL will not pursue something with the depth or tenacity as these charliesmanuel guys. That just makes sense. They have to protect their own best interests. But that all as I say is way way off the mark - who cares what THEY say? You never heard of CYA? They'd all just rather sweep this mess away. Moreover Mike Pereira is a total clown. He a dirtball. Listen to what he says when he tries to explain why it was a fumble - He says "it was that contact on the way up". Up? Well up is forward. That by NFL rules is a pass. This moron argues a great point against the point he is trying to make. He's a moron and he's a loser and he'd lie to his own mother. Stop acting like he knows anything.

Andy Musser said...

Stickski is making the same argument we made from day one. Two pictures, clearly up, and you do not move the ball up and back while attempting a Hail Mary. I haven't even read Ditka's posts, but I'll read Buddy's.

Andy Musser said...

It is not an accident that the only arguers keep posting NFL links. The NFL is biased. Why would a business admit they are wrong? Especially on the stage that is the Super Bowl.

I'm posting about baseball, in addition to taking the 11 seconds out of my day to refute your intentionally long posts. So don't act like we are the ones that aren't moving on.

Also, I haven't even stated this yet: Why do you think Warner was able to control the ball for so long? Because the Pitt defender batted his left hand at where the thought the ball would be when his left hand got there. However, Warner moved the ball forward slightly, therefore just avoiding the defender's left hand.

Andy Musser said...

at where he thought*

Scott Graham said...

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Just like I think most of the Philadelphia sports journalists are trash, and I avoid reading them. However, the funny thing with Game 5 of the World Series was that MLB also messed that up. If that were a regular season game, it would have ended when Cole Hamels had to swim in from the mound. The Rays would have never had a chance to tie the game. If you can lose a game in March, or June, or September due to rain (this game could cause you to miss the playoffs), you should also be able to lose a game in the World Series in the same way. So, Game 5 was technically a HUGE mistake that gave the Rays another shot at winning.

Phillyinnyc said...

Fumble... and bumble

Mike_My_Ditka said...

To not even admit that its a disputable play that could have gone either way indicates you have an agenda here, and are not the objective phillie blog you claim to be.

I would have not been bothered had they called it incomplete because it was very close. I personally think they got it right, but Im also a reasonable guy who sees it as excruciatingly close, and so I understand if someone else saw it differently.

So the rigid language you use, like "clearly" and "prove" is where you get this wrong. The problem is, while your argument is compelling, its not without its holes.

One argument I would make on your theory is how does up means forward? To go forward you need definitive lateral movement, and I'm sorry but I dont see lateral movement in either the video footage or in your pictures. Again, look at the whole throw, not two pictures which may or may not be in sync with each other.

Also Warner's upper body is leaning back, which complicates the matter of going forward. Not taking that into account only further clouds your theory.

I sent you guys a link that had great camera angles, slow motion, and with much better quality than the crappy link you got your stills from. (and your link is now dead too, so you cant even see both of your stills in context with the play.) If you hate Mike Periera than just mute it, but around the 2 minute mark you can pause it and get great looks of the play.

But of course, nfl.com probably manipulated their footage, right? After all, the whole superbowl was an inevitable coronation of the steelers as champs, as handed to them be the refs. Is this what you seriously believe? And then you claim objectivity?

So just to be clear, this is what you are saying:

We are the ones with creditability in dissecting plays, not the NFL and the head of the league's officiating, because THEY are biased and there was a definitive conspiracy in place to make sure the Pittsburgh Steelers won the game.

Dont forget your quote when you begged deadspin for a link:

(I run a VERY objective Phillies blog. I only react like this when I know I'm right and I truly think I deserve a shot.)

LOL- UMM...yeah. VERY objective. LOL.

I cant wait for the blurry pictures you guys have of Dan Rooney dropping off his bribe.

Ive said it already but its worth saying again: All you are doing is manipulating and taking out of context the evidence to fit your preconceived notion of what happened.

THAT is the definition of bias, not objectivity.

Andy Musser said...

Again, attack me all you want, but those 7 HD pictures are clear. Unless you believe the ball started forward, then magically moved backward in the instant Warner was hit, and then was magically pushed forward with an arm that was magically moving backward at the point of contact, then you're either insane, or you're slightly offended that someone who isn't in the 'deadspin club' can post a couple pictures, write a couple words, and make his point while fending off random clowns like you.

Again, it is CLEAR if you realize the context in which we are arguing is a couple hundredths of a second.

Conclusivity does not mean the entire football-watching population has to agree. Like others on here have said, UP is forward.

Andy Musser said...

It is funny you keep complaining about the two grainy pictures while ignoring the 7 HD pictures. Again, the lateral movement is proven implicitly with the upward movement, and explicitly when you use the red corner of the NFL logo as a reference point.

Keep up the good work ditka, you admitted you think it is a fumble, and now you're arguing irrationally to prove someone wrong who disagrees. THAT is bias.

I watched this play probably close to 100 times before I posted these two pictures, and then somebody else sent me the 7 clear ones. I had no preconceived notion - in fact I did not even care at the time, since my only rooting interest in the game was for Larry Fitzgerald to have fewer than 90.5 receiving yards, a point at which he had passed only 2 minutes before this play.

Mike_My_Ditka said...

Wait a minute- 7 HD Pics? Are you high?

I see two lousy, blurry pics. If thats what your HD looks like, I suggest throwing your TV out.

And buddy, your the one putting this garbage out here, so you damn well better be prepared to defend yourself. Now is not the time to go crying about being attacked, when you yourself have been on the offensive. I didnt call you guys names like you just did to me: All I said about you is that you guys have an axe to grind and are not impartial.

Please, by all means prove me wrong- but if this is all you got it isnt enough.

And if you didnt want the deadspin crowd in your blog you shouldnt have grubbed for a link.

Andy Musser said...

When did I say I didn't want deadspin involved?

And I didn't cry about being attacked, in fact, I asked you to attack me all you want. If it makes you feel better about yourself to insult an anonymous person, then go for it.

Obviously you haven't even seen the 7 HD pictures, which explains why you're the only one still arguing.

Scott Graham said...

Ditka, I'm really not trying to stir you up again, but I am confused as to how we're manipulating and taking evidence out of context. I mean, the context was the last true play of the Super Bowl. It was a passing play with a fuzzy result. We're simply watching a video (which the head referee does in a review), slowing it down to a frame by frame slow motion (which they also do), and using the letter of the NFL "law" to determine that his hand was going forward as is necessary by said law.

He is in the act of passing, so the forward (upward during a throw is forward) motion of his hand is clear intent to pass the ball. How are we taking anything out of context? We're simply interpreting what the rule says, and using visual evidence to declare how we think the play should be called.

I feel like you are ignoring all of my comments because as I have stated before, I had no real interest in the game whatsoever, nor am I claiming conspiracy. Had this happened the other way, I probably would have been just as enraged. The only time a question of integrity comes in is when they do no have an on-field review to hopefully ensure that the correct call was made.

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